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Post by Black-capped Chickadee on May 17, 2021 2:05:07 GMT
kestrel! <3
i love you too.
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Post by Venus Fly Trap on May 17, 2021 2:24:31 GMT
Not to pile on, but I agree with everything everyone else said about returnees. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'd never vote for them as a juror, but they would need to really impress me. The other two finalists got to the end without getting voted out, so I would need a good reason to vote for the returnee over one of them. This is more what I was getting at with my ranty speech earlier. I'm not saying a returnee should win, but like to completely disregard their game because of them just playing the game that was given to them is a pretty dismissive attitude and I hate seeing it. Now if you compare them and just straight up think the other two played better games, fine, but like there was someone who was literally idoled out, returned and then lost because there were people who just completely dismissed them on the fact that they were a returnee. Do I think they should have won, debatable, but at least hear the returnee out before dismissing them. It's just an unfair mindset to bring in to someone who came back under perfectly legitimate circumstances per the game rules and not even hear them out. Using a real example, the reason Natalie Anderson lost isn't because she didn't play a good game in WaW, but it's because she didn't utilize the time she was given to the best of her abilities. She alienated people on EoE and proceeded not to take Tony out herself to prove she deserved to be there. Those are fundamental issues and reasons why she should not have won. It's not her fault the producers literally gave her a redemption twist that was everything she was good at physically and mentally. She just had flaws in her return which is why I think it is perfectly valid that she lost to Tony. All I'm saying is "never voting a returnee because they are a returnee" is flawed, toxic mentality that shuts people out. Not voting for someone because they didn't use their time the best and in your eyes didn't play the best game should be what survivor is about at the end of the day, and if it's the returnee, it's the returnee, if it's not, it's not. Sorry I could go on about this all day
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Post by Morel Mushroom on May 17, 2021 3:31:33 GMT
He told Rat and Kestrel, who talked to each other about it but didn't tell anyone else I think the key difference between Eagle and Kestrel in terms of giving up Immunity is that Eagle is seen as having a better chance of winning a challenge, whereas Kestrel is seen as more of a threat to deliver a strong FTC I already said what I thought about EoE on the podcast so I won't repeat myself But does this mean kestrel now doesn't get to know the F4 challenge? Because that kinda sucks if so
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Post by Oak Tree on May 17, 2021 7:17:14 GMT
Of course there are situations where I would vote a returnee, and I agree that fully dismissing someone solely on that basis when otherwise you'd vote them is a bit ridiculous. But it's definitely a stain on someone's game that would make it really difficult for me to want them to be the winner of the game.
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Post by Oak Tree on May 17, 2021 7:26:07 GMT
Slightly tangential, but another issue with returnees late-game is that most of the time (especially on MS), the players left in the game at F4/F5 almost always already have a majority of people that have plans to make endgame with each other. If you've already worked hard to set up the end of the game how you wanted it to go, a returnee won't be very appealing to work with (even if some players would benefit from working with them). We saw that here - all four of the F4 wanted this F4.
Furthermore, choosing to work with the returnee to some extent implies that the plan you had before they came back wasn't working, or good enough, and that can dissuade people from wanting to completely shake things up at the very end.
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Moth
Extinct
in lämps we trust
Posts: 392
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Post by Moth on May 17, 2021 10:26:13 GMT
can we get 1 more like for axo my guys
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Post by Pineapple on May 17, 2021 13:44:15 GMT
He told Rat and Kestrel, who talked to each other about it but didn't tell anyone else I think the key difference between Eagle and Kestrel in terms of giving up Immunity is that Eagle is seen as having a better chance of winning a challenge, whereas Kestrel is seen as more of a threat to deliver a strong FTC I already said what I thought about EoE on the podcast so I won't repeat myself But does this mean kestrel now doesn't get to know the F4 challenge? Because that kinda sucks if so Yeah anyone who knew the fire challenge before it got changed should still get to know what it is. They shouldn’t lose knowledge because of a design issue.
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Post by Pineapple on May 17, 2021 14:50:38 GMT
Of course there are situations where I would vote a returnee, and I agree that fully dismissing someone solely on that basis when otherwise you'd vote them is a bit ridiculous. But it's definitely a stain on someone's game that would make it really difficult for me to want them to be the winner of the game. To me, I actually did like the fitness test more than EoE (despite it mostly just passing a barely active Dog back and forth), because while being voted out is a slight strike against the fitness test winner, they stay in the game without missing any time. And this is where I actually just don't agree with Venus Fly Trap at all. I value that game, the main game, above all else. Like, it's no disrespect to the player at all, who could be doing the best job possible in their circumstances, but I just don't really care what they're doing while they're in EoE. I would weigh my vote based on how they were doing before they got voted out, the circumstances of that vote out, and how they did after they got back. To make an obviously unfair comparison, because of course EoE here did have Survivor-like mechanics, but if Natalie Anderson had come back into the game via dunk contest, and executed a flawless free throw line 360 tomahawk jam in doing so, I'd be like okay that was absolutely awesome but it has no bearing on my vote, because dunking has nothing to do with what I value and consider to be Survivor gameplay. Like, you can say someone is following the mechanics and playing the game they were given, and I don't begrudge that, but I also don't have to value their accomplishments within these mechanics as a juror if I personally don't find it relevant.
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Post by Pineapple on May 17, 2021 14:53:41 GMT
Oh, and also, no disrespect to the mod design here at all. This is just a topic that's ripe for lots of interesting conversation and debate. And like I mentioned, my silly dunking example is worlds apart from what they put together here, and I appreciate mods attempting new ideas to see how they do.
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Post by Venus Fly Trap on May 17, 2021 15:29:05 GMT
I guess then if that's the mindset of people, then why bother designing a return structure at all? If everyone's just going to have bad dismissive tendencies towards the returnee anyways lol.
Just seems short sighted, but if people are going to have that attitude then it seems super unfair to even bother planning one because what's the point of returning and fighting your way to actually earn a spot in the finals?
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Post by Oak Tree on May 17, 2021 15:32:35 GMT
I think returnee twists can be executed properly to where these problems don't exist. But yeah, I'd agree that it's better to not have them if they're not wanted by the community.
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Algae
Spectatora
Posts: 340
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Post by Algae on May 17, 2021 15:38:10 GMT
I guess then if that's the mindset of people, then why bother designing a return structure at all? If everyone's just going to have bad dismissive tendencies towards the returnee anyways lol. Just seems short sighted, but if people are going to have that attitude then it seems super unfair to even bother planning one because what's the point of returning and fighting your way to actually earn a spot in the finals? I mean to be fair, a lot of people who have said that also advocate for games to stop having returnees lol. I mostly just like there not being returnees beause I think it makes the game more dramatic if eliminations are final. It gives each player a more satisfying downfall arc and storyline instead of a disjointed story where they lingered long after they died only to likely not return anyway. I would say I slightly value what people do while in the Hole/on the Edge/in Redemption etc. just because I do think how you play the cards you are dealt matters. But I also value the game proper more than anything else, especially the merge. So like even if Natalie Anderson played perfectly on the Edge and never alienated anyone, I still think Tony should have won because of the game he played in the main game. But if Natalie was up against someone with major misplays in the main game and she played a flawess Edge game, then mayyyybe it starts to get a little more close. And if there are extenuating circumstances that matters to me as well, like if you were idoled out and you can explain why your elimination wasn't 100% your fault, then maybe that mitigates some stuff as well. But in a game with relatively few objective goals, one of the few is not getting voted out, so if someone fails that, Jurors can and will hold that against them. It's one of the few things a Juror can cling to and say is objectively bad play.
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Post by Bitter Poisonpie on May 17, 2021 17:25:35 GMT
This immunity challenge must be hard
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Post by Pineapple on May 17, 2021 17:37:16 GMT
I guess then if that's the mindset of people, then why bother designing a return structure at all? If everyone's just going to have bad dismissive tendencies towards the returnee anyways lol. Just seems short sighted, but if people are going to have that attitude then it seems super unfair to even bother planning one because what's the point of returning and fighting your way to actually earn a spot in the finals? I mean to be fair, a lot of people who have said that also advocate for games to stop having returnees lol. I mostly just like there not being returnees beause I think it makes the game more dramatic if eliminations are final. It gives each player a more satisfying downfall arc and storyline instead of a disjointed story where they lingered long after they died only to likely not return anyway. I would say I slightly value what people do while in the Hole/on the Edge/in Redemption etc. just because I do think how you play the cards you are dealt matters. But I also value the game proper more than anything else, especially the merge. So like even if Natalie Anderson played perfectly on the Edge and never alienated anyone, I still think Tony should have won because of the game he played in the main game. But if Natalie was up against someone with major misplays in the main game and she played a flawess Edge game, then mayyyybe it starts to get a little more close. And if there are extenuating circumstances that matters to me as well, like if you were idoled out and you can explain why your elimination wasn't 100% your fault, then maybe that mitigates some stuff as well. But in a game with relatively few objective goals, one of the few is not getting voted out, so if someone fails that, Jurors can and will hold that against them. It's one of the few things a Juror can cling to and say is objectively bad play. Basically agree with all of this. To Venus, I'm not saying I'd automatically eliminate a returnee from my consideration as a juror. And like Algae also, I actually would factor in the Hole or EoE or whatever somewhat, since they have social strategy dynamics. But still, not all that much... but that's not too unfair, I don't think, because jurors generally don't place great importance on the pre-merge game either. While I (again) agree with Algae that personally I prefer eliminations to be final, I do think a returnee mechanic could still find room to be compatible with my jury philosophy. If my problem is that I don't place a big chunk of value in any side games going on, then so long as the player is present for the greater part of the main game and especially the post-merge, then I could still see it being worthwhile.
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Moth
Extinct
in lämps we trust
Posts: 392
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Post by Moth on May 17, 2021 18:16:03 GMT
so, basically, the way to fix redemption all boils down to making the eliminated played spend the least time possible outside of the game from what i'm understeanding?
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