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Post by Oak Tree on May 16, 2021 22:33:05 GMT
My problem with the strategic/social/structural framework is that it's prescriptive rather than descriptive. It's saying, "these are the things that matter" to the Jurors instead of letting them decide. And on the actual show, the format was literally changed because Jeff thought the Jury got it wrong in choosing Michele over Aubry and didn't value the things he wanted them to YES YES YES thank you Sorry for spam but this post is gold
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Post by Bitter Poisonpie on May 16, 2021 22:42:04 GMT
maybe games with returnee twists need to be advertised as such so people who feel it is not survivor and would never realistically vote for a returnee don't play them?
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Post by Oak Tree on May 16, 2021 22:46:06 GMT
On paper I'd agree with that That does come with its own baggage though - people tend to be deathly allergic to Big Moves when they know someone could be coming back to spoil their fun
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Post by Poison Ivy on May 16, 2021 22:51:30 GMT
Not to pile on, but I agree with everything everyone else said about returnees. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'd never vote for them as a juror, but they would need to really impress me. The other two finalists got to the end without getting voted out, so I would need a good reason to vote for the returnee over one of them.
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Post by Bitter Poisonpie on May 16, 2021 22:52:36 GMT
I mean yeah that's basically what happened in premerge of this game. There are cons. I just think people having a better idea of what kind of 2 month commitment theyre getting themselves into is a pretty big pro
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Post by Oak Tree on May 16, 2021 22:59:44 GMT
I'll preface this with the fact that I think this game has been beautifully designed in many ways and I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the mods for making/running this as smoothly as you have
but I really think the responsibility for this lies in the design process, not in the player base. Enough people feel negatively towards people getting to FTC having not played the game that maybe they're not doing anything wrong by thinking that way.
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Post by Hermit Crab on May 16, 2021 23:03:49 GMT
A player is voted out but returns due to a Fitness Challenge: “Ooo cool design!” A player is voted out but returns due to winning several EoE votes and challenges: “Ugh what bullshit design.”
Edit: I’m on my phone but pretend I photoshopped that onto the “Hello HR” meme.
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Algae
Spectatora
Posts: 340
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Post by Algae on May 16, 2021 23:26:35 GMT
A player is voted out but returns due to a Fitness Challenge: “Ooo cool design!” A player is voted out but returns due to winning several EoE votes and challenges: “Ugh what bullshit design.” Edit: I’m on my phone but pretend I photoshopped that onto the “Hello HR” meme. I mean, I was critical of Fitness Challenges too. If you listen to T4's podcast, I point put my issues with them. They probably are my favorite way a returnee challenge was been implemented, but I still don't love them. They encouraged people not to take big risks and resulted in us having to watch the same few people get booted multiple times when most of the early boots are booted early for a reason (and we had some bad luck where the few who I wanted to see return like Moth and Chickadee weren't able to benefit from the twist). But also the crucial difference is returning at F4 vs in the premerge. It's really not comparable. If a Fitness challenge returnee made it to the end, they would have had to survive and play the entire merge.
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Post by Oak Tree on May 16, 2021 23:28:15 GMT
The key difference being that in the former you're not being removed from playing the game for any amount of time and have full time to prove to a jury that you can, in fact, play Survivor And in the latter, you, uh, are
Again I'd like to stress that I haven't called your design bullshit once
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Post by Bitter Poisonpie on May 16, 2021 23:28:45 GMT
Forgot to mention this earlier but I rly enjoyed this game's idol hunt
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Algae
Spectatora
Posts: 340
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Post by Algae on May 16, 2021 23:29:03 GMT
But I do like the design of this game overall and I don't want to be too critical. I think we've just had a lot of returnees recently and it's not a twist I particularly enjoy to begin with, but seeing it in so many games makes me like it even less.
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Post by Hermit Crab on May 16, 2021 23:38:09 GMT
Again I'd like to stress that I haven't called your design bullshit once Sorry, I’m not specifically calling you out, or even calling this specific conversation out. But it’s been a pervasive thread for a while now.
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Mongoose
Extinct
your favorite mongoose, in 100 words or less.
Posts: 79
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Post by Mongoose on May 16, 2021 23:50:25 GMT
everytime i see a torchwalk where people make a separate thread for every single person in the game i scream WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS
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Post by Bitter Poisonpie on May 16, 2021 23:52:56 GMT
everytime i see a torchwalk where people make a separate thread for every single person in the game i scream WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS I hope I am not the only spec that does torchwalks or I'll have accidentally caused this needlessly lol.
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Post by Gray Wolf on May 17, 2021 0:00:49 GMT
I think there's a pervasive attitude that returnee systems should probably just go away for a bit. EoE is a little different but it's not drastically different from the hole in barely survivor or the things that happened in Arkham or *insert other game here with a returnee section*. I think we'll see a lot of games now without it and that's fine, probably shouldn't be in every game.
As a mod, I wanted to give more chances for people to play the game as it can be unsatisfying to lose to being swapscrewed or to an idol or to a tiny tribe. Due to rounds without fitness challenges, I don't know if we succeeded at that or not, but I like what we tried to accomplish here with both Fitness and EoE even if it wasn't perfect.
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